Posts by Death to the Pixies

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

Death to the Pixies

<<<So, regardless of your own doctrinal persuasion; on the question raised by this thread - do you agree that the WTS was dishonest in its representation of those sources?>>>

Reply:Many of the so-called offenses are similiar to the Fortman above, a closer examination shows the intent of the quote. I have not checked all the sources, but basically they are accurate when you understand the context of the situation, like with Fortman and the Broch's. use of him. It is a matter of holding the brochure, in this instance, up to a standard that Rev. Frank does not even meet. I have spotted 3 or 4 similiar "offenses" in Rev. Franks presentation, I could share a couple if you like.

Do you have any comments on my Fortman rebuttal? Probably could have found a better source than Weigall, but that is pretty much my only complaint.

52

Rock Songs Anyone?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

.

name any song ... new or old ... that has the word "rock" in the title or main lyrics.. obvious one: old time rock n roll - bob seger

Death to the Pixies

"Rocking in the Free World" Neil Young "So you wanna be a Rock and Roll Star"... Hmm, maybe Boston?

52

Rock Songs Anyone?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

.

name any song ... new or old ... that has the word "rock" in the title or main lyrics.. obvious one: old time rock n roll - bob seger

Death to the Pixies

"Rock your body"...The incomparable Justin Timberlake.

"Rock music"...Pixies.

"Rock me Amadeus" (check spelling).. Weird German group.

32

News flash for Watch Tower!

by Quotes in

jw
friends

(since i suspect i am being watched to ensure my compliance to the terms of the settlement agreement, i thought i would take advantage of the captive audience) .

hey!

watch tower!

Death to the Pixies

Fatfreak, look at any Watch Tower Service Report. They list Alaska and Hawaii in what is generally a list of countries. Seriously, they do. I suppose they have some excuse about "lands", not "countries", but that is a case of special pleading. Why not start listing other states seperately? Why not list California seperately? After all, California has as big a population as all of Canada, and Canada gets a seperate listing, on its own.

Reply: Boy someone needs a nap.... Hope you researched your "quotes" better than this.

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

Death to the Pixies

<<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)

Booklet: "The New Testament writers...give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons."

Source: The very next sentence reads:

"But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated." >>>>>>

Reply: Rev Frank, I gather you missed the point to the quotation..."No formal or formulated doctrine"..."no explicit teaching"..... Which was the point the booklet was going for. Again, the building blocks for a formualtion were tehre according to Fortman, not the doctrine itself.

<<<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.) [Notes Traces of Triadic Pattern]

Booklet: "Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

Source: (The sentence right before the Watchtower quote says:

"The clearest expression of this pattern is found in the baptismal formula where Matthew presents the three together as at once a triad and a unity." >>>>>>>>

Reply: Not as a "God-head" though. I as a non-Trinitarian believe in the unity of the Father, Son and spirit, but not as a co-equal, co-eternal God-head.

Fortman is an interersting read and gives a good glimpse to how a Trintiarian must interpret scripture and History to come to his conclusions. I do not mean that in negative way, all of us have to do the same.

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

Death to the Pixies

A lot of quots here, I will respond to Fortman, because I have read his book..

<<<<p.6 - EDMUND FORTMANN - "THE TRIUNE GOD"

Booklet: "The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a triune God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead..."

Source: Just prior to this statement he says:

"As a Catholic priest and a firm believer in the Triune God...and convinced that the doctrine is a Christian doctrine that did and could originate only from divine revelation, I start the study from the authentic record of divine revelation that is found in the sacred writings of the Old and New Testaments." >>>>>>

Reply: No "deliberate" mis-quote here, as The Booklet is trying to show the doctrine is not explicitly or "clearly" taught in the Hebrew Bible even from "hostile Witnesses" such as Fortman (who ultimately believes the Trimity is true). Throughout Fortmans work it is hard to miss his belief that in the Bible (NT&OT) the Trinity is not expicitly taught, but he opts instead the say the building blocks for a later formulation are present. This would be admitted by all to some degree, but not as a God made up of 3 persons, this idea sprang up later. In the Bible, even when the 3 are mentioned together, only the Father is God, as in 1 Cor. 12. This same presentation is also in 1 Clement 45:6: : "Do we have not one God, and One Christ and One gracious Spirit that has been been poured out upon us"

<<<<p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)

Booklet: "Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or veiled signs of the trinity of persons is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."

Source: The statement continues:

"However, these writers definitely do give us the words that the New Testament uses to express the trinity of persons, Father, Son, Word, Wisdom, Spirit. And their way of understanding these words helps us to see how the revelation of God in the New Testament goes beyond the revelation of God in the Old Testament." >>>>>

Reply: But to Fortman, it is not formally taught, only the building blocks for a later formulated doctrine are present. ie. the "it is not clearly taught" the Wt was going after was upheld by Fortman.

30

Quote: It is not necessary for Bible translators to know Hebrew and Greek.

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

i just found some very revealing information in the branch organization manual.. 1. they admit that bible translators do not need to know hebrew or greek.

2. they admit that the reason the authors' names are omitted is primarily to protect the organization and the authors from liability.. all bold letters are original... i added the yellow highlight and red text.. branch organization manual: page 25-5.

46. bible translation: when there are sufficient.

Death to the Pixies

Auldsoul:For example John 10:16, the words translated "which are not of this fold" are explained by the WTS to mean that there would be other sheep which were not IN "this fold" of spiritual Isarel that he was collecting at that time. However, the Greek even from their Kingdom Interlinear Translation plainly shows that this "of" means "out of" which would mean Jesus was referring to sheep FROM, or OUT OF two different sources with one destiny ("one flock"), not two different destinies for sheep FROM the same flock.

Reply: I am not sure how "out of" in this context is much diff than "of". The gospel still uses the negative "ou". As far as what it means theologically is not a blow to the translation.

100

Please don't judge dear friends but I'll be pioneering next month...

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

well, it's memorial season and mom has been giving me the "look" this past week ever since she has decided to pioneer for february and march.

anyways, the thing is i plan on buying a new car in the next couple months.

well, i know how my mom operates.

Death to the Pixies

<<<Don't let some posters get to you, they aren't in your situation. You know what is right for you at the right time. This decision is your own. Take your time and do right.>>>

Reply: I was in her situation...Except without the parents giving me free rent part.

100

Please don't judge dear friends but I'll be pioneering next month...

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

well, it's memorial season and mom has been giving me the "look" this past week ever since she has decided to pioneer for february and march.

anyways, the thing is i plan on buying a new car in the next couple months.

well, i know how my mom operates.

Death to the Pixies

< >

Selfish= You already have a car apparently, and you are disregarding your mothers feelings and criteria to get a better one.

Dis-honest= You are not just apathetic about the preaching work, you are totally against it, and you are gaining financially from going against your own principles. This is a sin against you and your mom. If your were honest with your mom, would you gain financially from this? No. So may I ask politely, what don't you get? Going to a meeting here and there to smooth things over is far different than Aux. Pioneering.... and gaining financially from this arrangement solely. Could I, as a believing Adult JW, Con my Catholic Grandpa into thinking I believed in his religion, maybe even take communion,simply to get stuff from him and not be considered dishonest?

<<< Maybe I should just go to my parents tonight, tell them I think JW's are a brainwashing cult and that I don't believe the FDS are God's mouthpiece nor that there is a Paradise. >>>

Reply: Or.... Get your own place You are 22, you are not entitled to be spoiled by your parents. Your excuse is that you cannot get a job? Cannot get an apartment? So therefore you must lie to your parents? Please.

Then I can pack my bags and move into a homeless shelter after they kick me out with all $37.50 in my bank account...

Reply: Oh, come now,why the Drama? Are they supporting you through College too? Rich people suck. I had to drop out of college and take a full-time job at 20. Ah, but we all can't be as "lucky" as me . Let me correct myself, Everyone can be as "Lucky" as me, in fact it is expected out of single individual regardless of their religious background :>)

Everyone on here can agree that everyone who wants to exit need to do it in a timely manner.

Reply: Nice try, you are an adult. How can you even think about doing this?

Of course, this is just a hypotheitical, there is no way you are serious about this right?

100

Please don't judge dear friends but I'll be pioneering next month...

by stillAwitness in

jw
friends

well, it's memorial season and mom has been giving me the "look" this past week ever since she has decided to pioneer for february and march.

anyways, the thing is i plan on buying a new car in the next couple months.

well, i know how my mom operates.

Death to the Pixies

<<<<Awww..you guys are being so supportive..and I thought you would of deemed me as unworthy for being a member of the JWD family anymore.

THANKS GUYS..YOU'RE THE GREATEST!

Yes, good to know JWD supports selfish dishonest behavior, Way to go fellas:>)

BTW, good joke StillAWitness, Kudos! Er wait, you almost sound serious.